Information Scientist Hilary Mason on AI and the Way forward for Fiction

On this podcast, Motley Idiot host Wealthy Lumelleau and information scientist Hilary Mason focus on:

• How her firm, Hidden Door, makes use of generative AI to show any work of fiction into an internet social roleplaying sport.
• Whether or not Napster is a good comparability.
• What the way forward for storytelling may appear to be.

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A full transcript is under.

This podcast was recorded on July 13, 2025.

Hilary Mason: I believe the way forward for leisure seems to be actually completely different, and that it really would not matter the place the thought begins.

Dan Boyd: That is Hillary Mason, the co-founder and CEO of Hidden Door. They use generative AI to show any work of fiction into an internet social role-playing sport. Our Wealthy Lumelleau talks to Mason about all that this entails, together with their Delight and Prejudice adaptation and parallels to Napster.

Wealthy Lumelleau: Let’s leap in the place we’re at present. As I discussed on the high, you are the CEO and co-founder of Hidden Door. Inform us about Hidden Door. Inform us in regards to the thought course of behind beginning it, what it does and what your function is there.

Hilary Mason: Sure. What we do at Hidden Door is we accomplice with individuals who create worlds via films, books, TV exhibits, or on-line communities, all of that actually fantastic world-building power, and we create methods for the followers to role-play in these worlds. We do use AI and machine studying to make that doable, and our followers get to come back in, create their very own characters and role-play their very own tales with a very mild stat system. The place they get problem, shock, they get to be inventive, and it is all inside the guidelines of the world, the principles of the IP. If there are characters from these worlds that seem, we implement all the principles round how these characters should behave. This can be a means for followers to fan-fick as a sport, keep excited in regards to the factor that they love. I do not find out about you, however after I end studying a e-book, I normally have 20 completely different concepts for various plots or corners of that world I’d have cherished to discover, and to actually do this in a means that reinforces and helps the authors and creators they admire. That is what we do at Hidden Door, however there’s a lengthy story about how we obtained right here.

Wealthy Lumelleau: Love to listen to it. Completely. That is query quantity 2 I’ve for you.

Hilary Mason: The abbreviated model is that I have been working on this space of tech that’s now known as generative AI and a extra broad tackle it. For a really very long time, I went to grad college for machine studying. I have been a pc science professor, realized I used to be very mediocre at that, however I actually love constructing issues and I really like constructing merchandise for folks. I ended up shifting again to New York Metropolis, which is the place I am proper now, additionally the place I grew up, and becoming a member of an organization known as Bitly which was simply beginning on the time, and we made quick hyperlinks on social media earlier than social media was actually a factor. I had the job there of Chief Scientist, which, by the best way, is the very best job title anybody can ever have, as a result of you haven’t any actual tasks aside from to invent the long run enterprise alternative for the corporate. Bitly was simply quick hyperlinks on social media, and my job was to determine the best way to use that dataset to create a enterprise. It’s the most enjoyable I’ve ever had. However that led me to start out exploring language modeling and determining what folks had been taking note of throughout the social net all over the world. We constructed a number of cool stuff.

Then I based an organization known as Quick Ahead Labs in 2014, and our very first undertaking, we did our personal utilized AI analysis, was on language technology, and we constructed a prototype that wrote actual property adverts. You’d put in structured information like two bed room residence close to the park, and it will write the advert the place it will be like, this sun-filled residence close to transit will probably be your loved ones’s escape. That basically obtained me enthusiastic about the facility and as an instance, the perils of producing textual content and reworking textual content. I will skip a bunch of stuff that occurred within the center. However Cloudera acquired Quick Ahead. We constructed a bunch of scaled enterprise functions utilizing embeddings and textual content modeling, that’s basically computable methods to know and mannequin data. The entire time, I used to be considering, the entire issues which might be limitations in doing this in an enterprise atmosphere with requirements for fax and issues like which might be property. If we take into consideration storytelling, if we take into consideration making a palette of choices and letting folks decide those or rewrite them or proceed gaming adventures. I began hidden door with my co-founder, Matt Brandwein 5 years in the past, with the concept that we had been simply firstly of the technical window, and this was properly earlier than ChatGPT, the place we would be capable of construct a product like this, and let’s examine the place we are able to go together with it. Now right here we’re 5 years later. We now have a product in Early Entry. If anybody desires to play it, go to hiddendoor.co and join the waitlist. We’ll get on in. It has been actually unbelievable to see all of it come collectively.

Wealthy Lumelleau: As an instance I end studying a e-book and I believe, man, I’d like to take this to the subsequent stage, and I contact you people at Hidden Door. Do I come to you with the thought and we determine the best way to do issues, or can we get in contact with the creator or the present creator?

Hilary Mason: We work with the creator and the creators, and we’ve got signed agreements with them to construct video games of their world. We actually need to do that from a spot of respect and basically constructing extra worth for them, serving to them encourage their communities and followers to remain concerned on the planet. That is the technique we have selected. For any world the place we’ve got that partnership, you may are available as a participant and begin to make your personal characters and inform your personal tales, which you’ll be able to then share and different folks can construct on as properly.

Wealthy Lumelleau: It is virtually like from the angle of the creator or the creator, this can be a probability to interact straight with followers and presumably one other income stream for them.

Hilary Mason: Precisely. That is the gross sales pitch. Maintain your followers lively. We respect all the principles of the world. This isn’t simply an LLM wrapper, and it offers the followers a option to interact, that’s blessed. It is actual, and the place additionally they have the flexibility to be inventive and have their very own adventures.

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Wealthy Lumelleau: Clearly, Hidden Door is bringing collectively storytelling authors, creators, in addition to via the lens of AI.

Hilary Mason: Sure.

Wealthy Lumelleau: It hasn’t at all times been the case that these two domains are seen as complimentary. It feels like we all know what the pitch to the authors is, however do you ever get pushback like, no, I do not need my child offered in that means?

Hilary Mason: Effectively, not that factor. I discuss to skeptical folks on a regular basis, and the skepticism is true. For those who take a look at the market, and also you take a look at what most individuals are operating round enthusiastic about, they’re saying issues like, we do not want authors anymore. I am simply going to ask ChatGPT or I will ask Cloud, and so they’re write the subsequent novel for me. That is not true, and it is not what I believe any of us need. It is not what issues. However, sure, I discuss to skeptics on a regular basis, and if we actually take into consideration the place that comes from, it comes from the truth that many of those massive language fashions have been constructed off of the creator’s work with out their permission and even their information in lots of circumstances.

Wealthy Lumelleau: Certain.

Hilary Mason: I’ve written a e-book or two. That they are in there, too. I do not thoughts within the sense that it is not how I make my dwelling, however for those who’ve written something on idiot.com, it is in all probability in there as properly. That’s not essentially proper, and so there’s a actual moral and precept cause for authors to be skeptical, and it’s due to the precise habits of most of the corporations out there, how a number of the tech is constructed, and I’ve to say right here, not ours at Hidden Door, however most of the folks out there are doing that, and the way would they know the distinction until they discuss to us? I believe some of the vital questions of the second is separating out the know-how itself after which enthusiastic about the sociotechnical means that we relate to the know-how, enthusiastic about what our values are and the way can we construct tech and companies that align with our values and are sincere about the place the information comes from, what we’re utilizing it for, what transformations occur? You may additionally say that I actually am a skeptic of a number of the generative AI market. If that is not apparent, I will simply say it out loud and clearly, as a result of I believe it is gone in a lower than best path, however I am attempting very a lot via our work at Hidden Door and our work with authors and creators to indicate a means that it could possibly be accomplished that’s respectful and is values aligned and is income aligned, as properly, as a result of values are one factor, however it’s vital to place your cash the place your values are. This is not an ideal analogy, however as I’ve examine Hidden Door, this virtually brings me again name it 25 or so years when Napster got here on the scene. It is this nice probability to create neighborhood, and we are able to all entry the music with one huge flaw. The musicians obtained nothing for it. I obtained to construct up my music record, my music catalog or library, no matter you need to name it, however the Doobie Brothers do not revenue from that. You’ve got taken that mannequin and mentioned, “Hey, we are able to get you compensated additionally”.

Hilary Mason: Effectively, and I’d say that that could be a good analogy, however then you concentrate on, I bear in mind Napster. It was superior from a buyer perspective. Any tune you wished was there and there have been recordings of stay exhibits you could not get another means. We now have nothing like that at present, and in addition, musicians do not make sufficient cash for his or her music. I believe that is an instance of how to not architect an business round a technical change, and hopefully we are able to do higher this time.

Wealthy Lumelleau: That is what I am saying. Looks like you guys have discovered a option to take that nice concept and determine a option to make the creator a beneficiary.

Hilary Mason: We’re attempting, and I believe it’s the proper means. Whether or not we determine it out or another person does, I believe we’d like folks out out there constructing companies and attempting to create examples of that.

Wealthy Lumelleau: What’s essentially the most stunning factor that you just discovered about constructing an organization round generative storytelling?

Hilary Mason: I’d say essentially the most stunning factor is extra round what tales matter to our gamers, in that, I believe I spend a bunch of time within the gaming business, and there is this thread the place individuals are like, generative AI and AI tech lets us have infinite video games. We have found via our personal testing, no person really desires that. The issues folks need are their character, their journey, after which they need moments which might be the identical as what everybody else is experiencing, in order that they’ve one thing to speak about. Our gamers, I ought to say, they are not normally individuals who would say, I am a gamer, however they’re individuals who learn, and so they’re individuals who watch TV, and so they’re folks for whom media is an enormous a part of their social life. I am certainly one of these folks too. I discuss to my pals about books. That is how I discover out what I must be studying. For this group of individuals, a minimum of, having infinite tales which might be skilled alone is just not that attention-grabbing, however having a shared cut-off date or a shared story or the flexibility to share it and say, “Hey, how did you meet Mr. Darcy in Delight and Prejudice?” Or I obtained him to be a vampire. Did you get that? These are the issues which might be really significant, and in order that was one which it did shock me as a result of there may be a number of power going into infinite sport worlds, and truly, that is not what issues. What issues are the moments which might be shared between our experiences, as a result of it offers us one thing to speak about and relate to one another about.

Wealthy Lumelleau: Certain. Has Hidden Door realized, is it extra books or exhibits or films which might be producing essentially the most curiosity, essentially the most engagement?

Hilary Mason: For us, it is each. We had been actually lucky to do an adaptation of the Crow based mostly on the graphic novel, however it was across the time the film got here out final summer time, and that was actually in style and stays tremendous in style. We even have a Delight and Prejudice adaptation, which, once more, it is a 200-year-old novel, however all of us nonetheless adore it, and it is one thing that we share culturally. I can not say it is one or the opposite. I really suppose that some of the attention-grabbing locations this tech will probably be influential in leisure is in breaking down the variations between, say, the publishing business, the gaming business, the film business, as a result of every of these industries continues to be architected round what it took to supply the artifacts. Movie is financed, careers are constructed, roles, job titles exist due to what it takes to make a movie. Then you’ve publishing, which is admittedly completely different than the movie business. Video video games, completely different but once more. TV is a bit little bit of a mixture between movie and books, however I believe we are going to see a gradual transformation in leisure broadly, as a result of what this tech is admittedly nice at is adapting data in a single format to a different, in a single place to a different. It is not inventive. It would not provide you with good things. However given anyone’s path and an authentic world to start out with, it might probably do one thing attention-grabbing. I do know you did not ask me for an enormous long-term sizzling take, however I gave you one anyway.

Wealthy Lumelleau: I’ve taken.

Hilary Mason: I believe, basically, it would not matter the place the creativity begins, and I believe there are lots of people on the market with world-building expertise who haven’t written that e-book but or who’re constructing on-line communities round their worlds, who will be capable of discover an viewers and construct that viewers due to this tack on this change. I believe the way forward for leisure seems to be actually completely different, and that it really would not matter the place the thought begins.

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