Brené Brown on Being a Regular Chief in Tumultuous Instances

ADI IGNATIUS: I’m Adi Ignatius.

ALISON BEARD: I’m Alison Beard, and that is the HBR IdeaCast.

ADI IGNATIUS So in the present day’s visitor is the famend researcher and writer, Brené Brown. It’s in all probability finest identified for her work on vulnerability for her guide Dare to Lead. It’s actually attention-grabbing to speak to her now as a result of like many people, she’s scuffling with this second in time. She doesn’t really feel like we’re okay in our tradition, in our enterprise lives, and that we’re disconnected and distrustful. So what she’s calling for herself and anybody who desires to go together with her on the experience is to do the arduous work to seek out your stability, discover your true north to guide out of your values and never your worry.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I imply that sounds quite a bit like my latest dialog with Ranjay Gulati about how leaders discover braveness in unsure instances. And that always does contain turning inward first, determining your function and your private story and your help community. After which taking motion primarily based on that pondering.

ADI IGNATIUS: And look, Brené is at all times entertaining. She’s fast with metaphors and classes from tradition, from sports activities. She talks for instance about how the very best leaders be taught to develop a type of pocket presence like soccer quarterbacks have. The place you’ve got a short second to measurement up the dangers, the dimensions of the scenario and make the very best response. And what’s attention-grabbing is she argues this phenomenon isn’t just a pure present, however is observable and measurable.

ALISON BEARD: Wow, that’s one thing I might like to be taught. So I can’t wait to listen to this dialog.

ADI IGNATIUS: I might additionally wish to be taught it. So it’s the kind of argument that illuminates Brené Brown’s newest guide, Robust Floor, the Classes of Daring Management, the Tenacity of Paradox and the knowledge of the Human Spirit. Right here is my dialog.

We’re in a second that I suppose I might name dynamic. And I don’t imply within the essentially constructive sense, however the place you’ve got volatility but in addition main shifts and I really feel like nearly every thing is up for grabs. Slightly bit just like the Nineteen Sixties, though very, very, very totally different on this interval. What does good management appear like when the bottom appears to be shifting so dramatically?

BRENÉ BROWN: Yeah, I feel it’s attention-grabbing. The phrase dynamic is attention-grabbing. I feel what I’m feeling personally is very large instability and unpredictability. Even our capability to forecast in brief increments of time has been utterly disrupted. And I feel good management proper now’s about settling the ball. I’m going to leap proper right into a sports activities metaphor. Are you going with me?

ADI IGNATIUS: I’m good, I’m good with that.

BRENÉ BROWN: Yeah, the metaphor I’ve been desirous about these days is a visible that I’ve of each my youngsters after they performed soccer after they have been 5. And five-year-old soccer is a very enjoyable factor to look at as a result of balls are available in actually quick and arduous at head top and a child sticks their foot up within the air and tries to kick it someplace sensible at head top and invariably it goes off the sphere. However I feel that’s what a number of leaders are doing proper now. Balls are coming in arduous and quick, unpredictably excessive. And as a substitute of leaping up and catching the ball with their chest, dropping the ball to the bottom, placing their foot on the ball to keep up possession, trying down the pitch, pondering strategically, pondering and anticipating the place individuals are going to be primarily based on coaching and talent. We’re simply making actually quick non-strategic selections that typically are, as a result of we’re in shortage mode and we’re not deploying the abilities we’ve got. And extra typically proper now I feel we don’t have the abilities we’d like.

ADI IGNATIUS: I feel there’s one different factor, which is that in durations of hyper uncertainty, there’s a college of thought that it’s important to be decisive. Don’t be a sufferer of this, so there’s a bias towards motion. So I really feel like one of many paradoxes is that, versus programs pondering is having this type of comeback the place the counter recommendation is, no–type of what you have been saying–gradual it down, suppose holistically about how a call will have an effect on no matter it’s, the whole firm, the whole group. How are you seeing these two imperatives play out?

BRENÉ BROWN: Properly, as a giant fan of programs idea–I don’t know that it ever went away, however I like to see the renaissance of the language and desirous about it. I feel the foundational strategic pondering of every thing we’re doing proper now needs to be programs idea. How inner programs are impacted by what we’re doing, how that bounces off exterior programs. What’s attention-grabbing–and I’ll be interested in what you concentrate on this, in programs idea we be taught that to ensure that programs to function the boundaries of a system must be permeable. So suggestions flows out and in of programs, bringing new info, we recalibrate, we ship out info. So there’s a permeability round programs. And whether or not that’s organic or management programs, it doesn’t matter.

Once we don’t have these permeable boundaries and the partitions round a system shut, which you’re seeing all over the place proper now out of self-protection, what finally ends up occurring is a system turns into self-referencing. An instance of that is A CEO feels a ton of strain to develop and implement an AI technique. However due to shortage the system partitions, they’re not taking time for suggestions, they’re not crimson teaming, they’re not doing a premortem, they’re not pondering via alignment of enterprise technique and expertise technique, they’re not skilling up their folks. And so what finally ends up occurring is that system turns into self-referencing. And on this local weather, that’s shedding.

ADI IGNATIUS: On AI particularly that report that all of us learn from MIT that stated 95% of AI initiatives do not need a constructive ROI. Whether or not that’s the methodology was correct, whether or not it’s was too quickly or not too quickly to do analysis like that, I’ve talked to lots of people who’re taking that to coronary heart and are slowing issues down, making use of extra of a programs method particularly to AI. We all know it produces worth, however simply type of getting the very first thing we are able to out there is no such thing as a longer the viable method.

BRENÉ BROWN: It’s one of many issues that I appear to on this guide be taking a number of constructs and ideas that we use and including an adjective to them. So sure, urgency, however productive urgency. Sure, risk-taking, however strategic risk-taking. I really feel like I’m taking a battery of pause adjectives and including it to every thing that individuals are feeling. So sure, we must be pressing, however unproductive urgency is at all times motion over influence. And I feel once you take a look at that MIT research, individuals are asking superb questions on it. Nevertheless it shouldn’t be ignored. And I’m a tech optimist. What I’m not is optimistic about folks’s reflexive decision-making after they’re in shortage mode.

ADI IGNATIUS: So on the subject of authenticity, whether or not we like that phrase or not. We’ve lived via this era the place leaders have been snug being… Or many leaders. The very best leaders have been snug being outspoken about their values. Values like sustainability, like variety, like long-term pondering. Out of the blue within the U.S, no less than a number of the CEOs who spoke that means now don’t dare accomplish that as a result of these matters have turn out to be controversial. And within the context of the authenticity or vulnerability that appears to supply the management we admire, are we seeing an absence of genuine management now on this abruptly extremely politicized enterprise second?

BRENÉ BROWN: I feel we’re seeing worry. I don’t consider worth that may be deserted primarily based on administration is a worth. It may be a advertising or branding concept, however a worth that’s deserted primarily based on who’s within the White Home is just not actually a core worth. The expression of values could change over time. And they need to. For instance, there are a number of corporations proper now who’ve integrity as a worth, however after they operationalize that worth, they’ve by no means contemplated knowledge governance, they’ve by no means contemplated privateness, they’ve by no means contemplated genuine voice politically. And so I feel it’s a frontrunner’s job to have the ability to lead for influence round mission whatever the administration. They don’t get a break there. And it’s additionally a frontrunner’s job to not abandon the values of the corporate. And so that may be a very short-term sport in a long-term world.

ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah, I like that. I wrote a chunk alongside these traces, pitting Davos man versus Mar-a-Lago man and simply stated, “It is a clarifying.” In case you actually consider in these items, this can be a second to double down. In case you don’t, as you have been saying, if it was simply performative, possibly that’s not a worth and that’s not who you might be or who your organization is so –

BRENÉ BROWN: Yeah and in addition if it was performative and you aren’t discovering a approach to transfer ahead in your integrity, then don’t be shocked by the patron backlash.

ADI IGNATIUS: Completely. So the guide is known as Robust Floor. What’s Robust Floor precisely. And the way did you resolve that was the idea that you simply actually needed to determine to drive this guide?

BRENÉ BROWN: It begins with pickleball, after all. In fact. A tennis participant for 30 years. I scoffed at pickleball for 2 years after which it took me two video games to start out enjoying six days every week.

ADI IGNATIUS: I might do it, however I’m too younger for pickleball.

BRENÉ BROWN: I received whipped up on yesterday fairly unhealthy by a few 20 12 months olds. So it has its moments for positive. I received injured and once I went to a coach, he informed me I had no core. Yeah, which was impolite. However yeah, he truly had me take a take a look at and he’s like, “You scored a ten out of 10.” And I used to be like, “In fact I did.” And he stated, “No, a ten out of twenty-two, sorry.” And he stated, “Your bodily age is like 77.” I used to be like, “Oh my God.”

ADI IGNATIUS: An ideal 10 out of twenty-two.

BRENÉ BROWN: Yeah, precisely. And also you don’t must be a researcher to be like, “Rattling, that’s unhealthy.” So he mainly stated I had a compensatory harm that I didn’t have the massive sturdy muscle mass that I wanted to do what I needed to do on the courtroom. So I used to be utilizing inefficient muscle teams and I used to be getting harm. And the extra he talked, the extra I assumed in regards to the leaders I work with. He stated issues like, “We’re going to go gradual, we’re going to be considerate. And we’re not going to construct on dysfunction.” And so in a really severe second the place I used to be looking for my lats, which I used to be confused I didn’t have, he checked out me and he stated–he referred to as me Brown. He was a really powerful man. He stated, “Brown, discover the bottom.” So I regarded down on the flooring. And he stated, “No, not the ground. Discover your floor. Use your thoughts to attach together with your physique and really feel the bottom beneath your ft.”

And it took me a minute. However once I did it I felt like I had tapped into one thing that each gave me a way of actual stability, but in addition a springboard for some energy that I wanted to do what he was asking me to do. And so sturdy floor turned my mantra, not simply within the fitness center, but in addition earlier than a tough assembly, earlier than teaching with a CEO, earlier than speaking to my very own coach. It was very a lot, “Okay, sturdy floor. Discover your athletic stance, get grounded down in your values, not only for stability, but in addition for agility.”

I feel proper now, given the speed, this tempo of change, we have to discover our floor. Each to offer stability. I imply, right here’s the factor, Adi, we’re not neurobiologically wired for what’s occurring proper now. Our nervous programs, our brains hate uncertainty. It makes an motion bias appear like nothing. Proper now we’re similar to clear up, clear up, clear up, clear up. So I feel the bottom is that place–It’s like if there’s a chapter within the guide on the tushpush, simply the physics of the bottom I feel is what we’d like proper now.

ADI IGNATIUS: For our very world viewers. We are going to clarify that tushpush is a play within the Nationwide Soccer League. Nevertheless it’s a play that includes elaborate teamwork and is inordinately profitable.

BRENÉ BROWN: It’s very profitable. And in the event you’re not within the U.S. or not a fan of the Nationwide Soccer League, the place it got here from is scrum in rugby. So it’s a bunch of oldsters creating power to maneuver a ball by grounding into the turf and pushing collectively. And why I find it irresistible as a metaphor for management is it’s nearly unimaginable to defend as a result of our pondering is that if we go over this mass of individuals creating power and shifting, that’s sensible. However the lesson Newtonian physics is once you lose contact with the bottom, your power is totally depleted. Drive isn’t just your physique weight, however your physique weight instances pushing towards the bottom. And so I feel Newtonian physics is a very good management metaphor for what we’d like proper now. A bunch of oldsters in a corporation firmly planted of their values, very clear on mission, very clear on objectives, pushing in the identical path and never changing into untethered.

ADI IGNATIUS: So we regularly ask leaders, “What’s it you need from HBR? What’s the most useful type of content material we can provide you?” And the reply is usually, “We wish to see examples of different folks, of our rivals even, in some crucible second or fixing some downside.” And folks have stated it’s like watching sport in the present day. That’s variety what they get out of it. So you utilize this phrase, “Pocket presence,” for leaders. Which I really like that as a result of it type of will get at this hyper unsure, hyper risky second about how it’s important to execute, speak about pocket presence.

BRENÉ BROWN: Yeah, it’s attention-grabbing as a result of I got here up throughout a time period the place there was a number of concentrate on govt presence. And that’s a very gauzy assemble for me as a researcher. At its finest, I don’t perceive precisely what it means. At its worst, I feel it introduces a ton of bias into what do we expect a frontrunner ought to appear like. And on this very humorous second, I’ve to share that I texted Adam Grant. And we’re actually good buddies. And I stated, “Hey. Okay if I take down govt presence within the guide?” And I simply received the three dots on the iPhone and I used to be like, “Oh, uh-oh. He’s going to inform me don’t do it.” And he stated, “Sure, completely. It’s cowl for discriminating towards introverts and ladies.” After which two seconds later, “And when you’re at it, might you are taking down charisma as nicely?”

Pocket presence may be very observable and measurable and teachable. And it’s a time period out of, once more, the Nationwide Soccer League. It’s a few collective competency. A quarterback is claimed to have pocket presence when he will get the ball the parents who defend him have about three seconds to guard him earlier than 1500 kilos of defenders come crashing in. And might he in a really brief period of time make selections about how you can transfer the ball down the sphere. Run it, go it, hand it off, no matter it’s.

In case you break down these abilities, it’s precisely the abilities I talked about after we first began the podcast about settling the ball and beneath this time period is what I feel we’d like in the present day. One, anticipatory pondering, he doesn’t throw the ball to the place the receiver is. He reads the sphere and throws the ball to the place the receiver goes to be in a second or two seconds primarily based on their coaching.

Two, temporal consciousness. We utterly underestimate this talent set for leaders. The rumor has it that Tom Brady, the quarterback for the Patriots for a few years had an inner clock that was so exact, he knew precisely when to let go of the ball and he might inform the place the folks have been round him defending him by the shaking of the sphere via his ft. I imply, that is temporal presence. Leaders want temporal presence. How a lot time do I actually have right here? How do I decelerate my staff with out shedding a way of productive urgency? So anticipatory consciousness, temporal consciousness.

And the third huge one–and that is I feel a tough one, which is situational consciousness. What system is my staff sitting in inside our group, inside the market and inside the geopolitical world? And the way does that influence our selections that we make each day? So I really like pocket presence as a collective competency for groups.

ADI IGNATIUS: A part of this needs to be sample recognition too. You’re doing it time and again. So my favourite quarterback, I’m a Washington Commanders fan. So Jayden Daniels, he’s a child, he’s in his second 12 months and he’s unbelievable. However one of many issues that appears to distinguish him is he mainly makes use of type of a VR set type of factor. So all day lengthy, even when he’s not on the sphere and he doesn’t have anyone else to play with, he’s mainly experiencing every thing you’re describing the place you’ve got a pair seconds, 1500 kilos of enemy is bearing down in you, and but in some way you type of see the entire subject. And I’m , how do executives develop that type of sample recognition? I imply, you bought to be taught on the job, you possibly can’t actually do it faux. However how do they develop that talent?

BRENÉ BROWN: The largest chapter within the guide, and it was the toughest chapter I’ve ever written in my profession. And I’ve written a number of books and a number of chapters. However was a chapter on what I name grounded confidence. How I received there may be via the preliminary management research on brave management the place my speculation was utterly fallacious. I’ve by no means been extra fallacious in my life. So we studied 150 transformational leaders. And we outlined and operationalized transformative leaders by leaders who created efficiency outcomes that have been enviable by their rivals and had cultures the place folks needed to work.

And it was surprising to me as a result of it was the primary time in my 30 12 months profession as a qualitative researcher that after we requested 150 leaders internationally, totally different industries, what’s the way forward for management? That they had the identical reply, which is, “We will need to have braver leaders and extra brave cultures.”

My speculation was the most important barrier to brave management is worry. And Adi, I’ll inform you only a second that I’ll always remember, it’s simply etched in my thoughts. I used to be sitting throughout from a kind of leaders type of enjoying again the findings to him. And he stated, “Let me be very clear. In case you’re creating an inventory of brave leaders and also you’re defining that as individuals who don’t really feel worry, don’t put me in your checklist. I’m afraid each day.” And I used to be like, “What?” So it’s not worry that’s the barrier to brave management. It seems that it’s armor. It’s how we defend ourselves after we’re afraid, after we don’t have the emotional consciousness to say, “Shoot, I’m in worry proper now. I’m making shortage primarily based selections. I’m not pondering absolutely.” So what we exchange armor with is grounded confidence. And one of many huge grounded confidence abilities–it’s a group of 30 abilities and mindsets–was sample recognition. By one other identify, it’s instinct.

There’s a giant debate about will we use our intestine or will we use knowledge? I simply watched one thing lately the place Jeff Bezos stated, “If it comes all the way down to knowledge or my intestine, I’m going with my intestine.” Nevertheless it’s truly not how instinct and sample recognition works. It’s a cognitive course of the place your thoughts filters via 100 recordsdata in a short time to acknowledge a sample the place you’ve been there earlier than, how did you deal with it and what was profitable? One of many biggest ways in which leaders can develop sample recognition, as a result of we don’t watch tape, there’s nothing to look at. It makes it simpler in sport, is to ensure when there’s a failure or a setback round a call, a technique or a efficiency metric, that there’s open dialogue about that and that that dialogue is about studying and embedding the training. As a result of what you’re doing is you’re making a psychological file system that sharpens sample recognition. If you wish to enhance sample recognition, open conversations round arduous learnings is essential.

ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah. I imply, look, all of us wish to be Steve Jobs. I don’t want no stinking focus teams. However I feel what you’re speaking about is there are processes that may make you smarter, could make your establishment smarter. I wish to get again although to what you stated about armor. As a result of I feel that’s necessary. The concept of breaking down armor, I imply it’s type of a basic of adolescent psychology, neurobiology. Breaking down the armor, the hero’s journey, all these items. However the armor comes again. We wrap ourselves in armor to really feel secure. And I suppose I’d love your ideas on how do you embrace worry as a constructive? How do you perpetually attempt to break free the armor that holds you again as a frontrunner?

BRENÉ BROWN: Over the previous six years, we’ve taken 150,000 leaders throughout 45 international locations via the Dare to Lead programming round brave management, the coaching. We had a number of knowledge from that as a result of we gather knowledge on every thing. And it appears easy, but it surely’s additionally troublesome and requires braveness–you can’t successfully begin peeling off your armor in the event you don’t know what it’s and also you don’t acknowledge the conditions wherein you utilize it or attain for it. It’s attention-grabbing that you simply talked about the hero’s journey and adolescent psychology. I might say that the best developmental milestone of midlife is a second the place all of us say, “This not serves. This stored me secure as a child rising up, it stored me secure in my 20s and 30s in my years of acquisition and acquirement and making an attempt to determine who I’m, but it surely’s tight and it’s heavy. I don’t even know who’s beneath right here anymore and it’s not working.”

And so I feel one of many first issues that we do as leaders is we take them via a course of the place it’s important to determine what it’s. My armor, I’ve numerous armor. Depth–I get tremendous intense. And since I’m a founder and a CEO, once I get tremendous intense the folks round me get quiet and transfer away. The precise reverse of what I have to make good selections. I micromanage. I’m going into the worst type of founder mode you’ve ever seen. I’ll decide the font, I’ll verify your e-mail. And I get very perfectionistic and I get overly decisive, which is bizarre.

So lots of people have evaluation paralysis. I simply sit in a gathering and go, “No, we’re not doing that transfer that change that. Oh no, we’re pivoting right here. Don’t try this.” After which I’ll lookup and say, “Oh crap, I feel I’m in some worry. Let’s not do these issues.” To which my staff responds, “We don’t write something down once you’re appearing this manner.” However I feel if there’s somebody that you simply actually love and belief exterior of labor, it’s a courageous query to ask, “What sort of behaviors do I have interaction in once I’m in worry and I’m armoring up?”

ADI IGNATIUS: So HBR has been round for greater than 100 years. You’ve got been writing bestselling books on a number of the matters we maintain expensive for many years. And there are hundreds of thousands of concepts coming from different sources which can be good concepts and analysis primarily based and so they’re examined. And why are we nonetheless not superb at management and never superb at administration? I imply, we are able to level to 1 or two examples of this individual actually nails it. However most of those examples are type of counter indicators. Why are we not higher at these items that you simply and I spend a lot time researching, writing about, making an attempt to share finest practices, et cetera?

BRENÉ BROWN: As a result of who we’re is how we lead. And I don’t care who the scholar is or what the method is, in the event you don’t have a really important degree of self-awareness, emotional granularity, emotional consciousness, programs pondering, I feel it’s very, very powerful to guide. I feel we’d quite do just about something apart from determine how we’re getting in our personal means. And so to take a bunch of individuals with a really severe objective, a severe mission, a number of strain, a number of exterior and inner complexity, and get this group of individuals to maneuver in the identical path with energy and function is a unprecedented factor to do over a protracted time period and requires actually understanding your self and the way human beings work. And I feel you possibly can squeeze good efficiency and development, no matter your metric is on a short-term foundation with energy over worry, exterior reward. However if you need one thing long-term and significant, it’s received to be intrinsic and it’s received to be about self-awareness. And I feel that’s arduous.

ADI IGNATIUS: To people who find themselves listening to this, who’re pondering, “Yeah, though this appears like fairly a journey, if I wish to make progress in these areas.” What are some issues folks can do can take into consideration proper now to turn out to be more practical leaders?

BRENÉ BROWN: I might begin with this. I don’t suppose individuals are okay, Adi. I don’t suppose we’re okay proper now. I feel collectively we’re dysregulated, distrustful and disconnected. I feel that makes main significantly troublesome proper now. I feel a really rapid factor anybody that’s listening can do who’s main a staff is that if I might wave a magic wand and alter one talent set that leaders had, I might say determine what it takes to create time the place none exists. Work out how you can take a breath and problem your personal pondering or your habits or the way you’re exhibiting up. When there’s a giant resolution or technique being made, how do you are taking a deep breath and gradual a room all the way down to be considerate, to run a pre-mortem on what’s occurring, to ask a crimson staff in, to check out your decision-making? Settle your self and take a deep breath and settle the folks round you.

And I feel that’s a problem, but when you can begin there, there’s no self-reflection, there’s no self-awareness, there’s no sensible technique, there’s no AI method. There’s nothing with out grounded pondering. So to take a deep breath and gradual issues down. And I’m speaking about minutes, I’m not speaking about months. And what actually scares you, me essentially the most–and that is to be trustworthy with you, very ubiquitous with the businesses I’m in proper now. I’m in 4 totally different corporations proper now throughout totally different industries. One is US-based, three of them are world. And the factor that I hear again and again was, “I don’t have time to consider it.” I imply, harmful.

ADI IGNATIUS: Yep. And do you are feeling you’re on sturdy floor now?

BRENÉ BROWN: On a regular basis? No. Am I getting higher at recognizing once I’m not and the price of that to me personally and professionally? Sure. I’m conscious of once I’m on sturdy floor and I’m conscious of once I’m not. It feels utterly totally different – I used to be working with a soccer staff a few month in the past. And I requested a few the offensive linemen to return up. And I requested them to get on their tippy toes after which on one foot. And I stated, “I’m going to push you.” And I pushed them into the shoulders and so they fell over. And naturally all their teammates have been like, “Rattling, she received you.”

Then I requested every of the gamers, “Inform me your values. What are your two huge values?” They usually informed me what they have been. And I stated, “Plant your left foot in a single worth, plant your proper foot within the different worth.” And I stated, “I wish to see if I can transfer you.” And it was pushing right into a concrete wall. And so we’re once more, dysregulated, distrusting and disconnected. And the primary place we have to begin regulating, trusting and reconnecting is ourself to one thing greater than us that gives stability and agility on the similar time.

ADI IGNATIUS: I’m going to deliver you down to speak to my softball staff in New London, Connecticut. You may inform us how you can run to first base with out pulling a hamstring each time.

BRENÉ BROWN: Oh God.

ADI IGNATIUS: Brené Brown, thanks for being our visitor in the present day on IdeaCast.

BRENÉ BROWN: What a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

ADI IGNATIUS: That was Brené Brown, researcher and writer of Robust Floor, the Classes of Daring Management, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the knowledge of the Human Spirit.

Subsequent week, Alison explores the concept of company diplomacy and how you can lead higher in difficult political instances across the globe. In case you discovered this episode useful, share it with a colleague and make sure you subscribe and fee IdeaCast in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you pay attention. If you wish to assist leaders transfer the world ahead, please contemplate subscribing to Harvard Enterprise Overview. You’ll get entry to the HBR cell app, the weekly unique insider e-newsletter, and limitless entry to HBR on-line. Simply head to hbr.org/subscribe.

And because of our staff, senior producer Mary Dooe, audio product supervisor, Ian Fox and senior manufacturing specialist Rob Eckhardt. And because of you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We’ll be again with a brand new episode on Tuesday. I’m Adi Ignatius.